[WI_Hedgehog]

To me, the government has no authority to infringe upon my right to do as I please until I infringe upon the rights of others. Helmets or not is a personal decision, and should remain in the hands of the individual. This mess is a mess because the government is overstepping the authority granted it.

 

[wjfyfe]

Should the insurance companies have the right to raise their rates on all motorcycle riders because a single id............individual refuses to wears a helmet and winds up an invalid, or dead because of it?

Bill

 

[Mr Kevin]

Should the insurance companies have the right to raise their rates on all motorcycle riders because a single id............individual refuses to wears a helmet and winds up an invalid, or dead because of it?

Bill

Of course they will. Insurance companies NEVER lose. They are the biggest mobsters in the world.

 

[Orangeman]

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Whats up with your top .........

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[TimC]

Motorcycle Helmet Laws | State-by-State Map

 

[WI_Hedgehog]

Should the insurance companies have the right to raise their rates on all motorcycle riders because a single id............individual refuses to wears a helmet and winds up an invalid, or dead because of it?

Bill

Yes, of course. As independently owned companies they can raise/lower their rates for any or no reason at all. A free-market economy tends to find the most elegant solution.

I do find it problematic you categorize people who don't wear helmets as "idiots." I'm pretty sure that many people are able to make weighted decisions, such as Harley-Davidson executives that don't wear helmets. They didn't become executives by being "lucky dummies," and given I live in Milwaukee, home of H-D and know and socialize with some of them, I'm pretty sure I'm qualified to make that statement.

Notice I've never said you Bill/Justina is/are idiots because you wear a helmet instead of enjoying nature/life/freedom. That's not an argument I should be making for either of you, as you have your own reasons for wearing helmets and I fully respect that. Similar respect toward other members might mitigate the hostility in responses to your posts.

 

[Yochemate]

Let's forget the motorcycle helmet debate and move to the more appropriate autocycle helmet debate where a head injury is much less likely than on a motorcycle. Do those states in which the SS is classified as an autocycle require a helmet? The motorcycles helmet advocates use data to justify that it will save lives and reduce society costs.

The monetary cost to society is another problem safety advocates cite. According to 2005 data, medical and other costs for unhelmeted riders involved in crashes averaged $310,000 per cyclist compared with $71,000 for cyclists wearing helmets, federal regulators say.

No similar data to this exists to support that helmeted riders of autocycles are significantly less likely to die and will reduce societal costs. Therefore should the the motorcycle helmet requirement or recommendation be applied to autocycles?
BTW I always wore my helmet when I drove my convertible corvair.

 

[WI_Hedgehog]

You bring up a good point, there is no "monetary cost to society" when a motorcyclist dies, they're dead. If they wear a helmet and survive, that's where the medical bills rack up--but what have they been paying premiums for? They're the ones flipping the bill! So the argument is fake/illogical on many fronts.

That's the problem with the "socialized" anything plan and why government isn't supposed to get involved in anything the private sector can manage.

 

[Nozzledog]

It's going to be very hard for the government to come up with any studies that show a helmet is beneficial in an autocycle, there are not many on the road and they vary so much in design that you could never get good statistics. This is one application that a helmet does have substantial drawbacks that makes it much different than a motorcycle you ride on top of, and get thrown from.
I have mentioned even racecar drivers no longer use helmets alone when seatbelted, but in conjunction with a HAHN type device that prevents the head from being launched forward during a crash. Statistics have shown that it does not take much deceleration force to damage the unsupported neck when the weight of a helmet is pushing on it and a torso is stationary. A device like this would not work in an autocycle however because of the need to be mobile and twist around to see what is coming at you from all directions.
So what good does a helmet do in an autocycle? It definitely is good protection from flying debris if you don't have a windshield and it may come in handy in a rollover. I say MAY because here again, helmets were not designed to take the force of riders with an autocycle strapped to their backs.
It would be very hard to determine which positives outweigh which negatives and whether a helmet is the best solution to those problems in the first place. Throw in our constitutional right to our own judgement, poor or otherwise (if it does not harm others) and wearing a helmet in an autocycle does not have a strong case.

To be clear on where I'm coming from, i do not wear a helmet, but have added a tall windshield and a rollcage to try and make up for some of the safety concerns that wearing a helmet causes and the not wearing a helmet prevents. I have given up some of the pleasures for safety, but at a level that I decided. I do not expect everyone to do the same since no one else has the same life as me.

 

[Yochemate]

To be clear on where I'm coming from, i do not wear a helmet, but have added a tall windshield and a rollcage to try and make up for some of the safety concerns that wearing a helmet causes and the not wearing a helmet prevents. I have given up some of the pleasures for safety, but at a level that I decided. I do not expect everyone to do the same since no one else has the same life as me.

I like where your coming from. However, no tall windshield so I do use the helmet on freeways for road granades launched from vehicles in front of me but not locally. However, when I put on the Stinger Roof a lot less granades seem to make it into the cockpit. The air vortex it creates seems to carry them over the roof. I was stopped once locally by a gentleman asking why I wasn't wearing a helmet because his friend who owns a SS in SoCal always wears his helmet and it's the law. I told him I ride without one all the time locally and no one bothers me. I like the rollcage idea.

 

[wjfyfe]

The monetary cost to society is another problem safety advocates cite. According to 2005 data, medical and other costs for unhelmeted riders involved in crashes averaged $310,000 per cyclist compared with $71,000 for cyclists wearing helmets, federal regulators say.

Thank-you, Yochemate! If the decision to wear a helmet did truly only affect the rider, as those that choose not to wear a helmet advocate, then this debate would be mute, but, unfortunately, that simply is not the case.

Bill

 

[wjfyfe]

Notice I've never said you Bill/Justina is/are idiots because you wear a helmet instead of enjoying nature/life/freedom. That's not an argument I should be making for either of you, as you have your own reasons for wearing helmets and I fully respect that. Similar respect toward other members might mitigate the hostility in responses to your posts.

Well, HH, there is copious amounts of data out there showing where not wearing a helmet has proven detrimental to life and limb, plus it's negative effects on society on a whole. If you will show us the same quality/quantity of data showing where wearing a helmet is any where close to being equally detrimental, I will retract my statement.

Though, I will qualify that statement by sharing that I work in a hospital environment where I am exposed more than most to the detriments of not wearing a helmet, not just to the rider, but to the family that surrounds them. Plus, Justina was saved from serious injury, and not becoming a statistic herself, by wearing a helmet, so I am very obviously biased in my opinion.

I have been accused of being an idiot myself from time to time, and I agree that I did not like it, but in retrospect looking back, on the most part it was true and deserving, and I can thank now the folks for bringing it to my attention! :shamefullyembarrased:

Bill

 

[Mr Kevin]

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Whats up with your top .........

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Not locked down.

 

[WI_Hedgehog]

Well, HH, there is copious amounts of data out there showing where not wearing a helmet has proven detrimental to life and limb, plus it's negative effects on society on a whole. If you will show us the same quality/quantity of data showing where wearing a helmet is any where close to being equally detrimental, I will retract my statement.

Though, I will qualify that statement by sharing that I work in a hospital environment where I am exposed more than most to the detriments of not wearing a helmet, not just to the rider, but to the family that surrounds them. Plus, Justina was saved from serious injury, and not becoming a statistic herself, by wearing a helmet, so I am very obviously biased in my opinion.

I have been accused of being an idiot myself from time to time, and I agree that I did not like it, but in retrospect looking back, on the most part it was true and deserving, and I can thank now the folks for bringing it to my attention! :shamefullyembarrased:

Bill

It's very simple: Wearing a helmet may help in a tip-over, low or mid-speed crash, but it probably has no effect in a high-speed crash (where the rider is spattered like a bug, and no offense to anyone who knows people this happened to--it is tragic). Wearing a helmet can have a seriously detrimental effect if one is run-over (and drug due to the helmet catching a low point of the vehicle). A helmet usually causes additional neck fatigue, which for some people is problematic. Helmets impair vision and hearing to differing degrees. Helmets may save a life, but the quality of living may be "not worth it."

Most importantly, you'd be safer in a car, truck, or even more safe in a bus, but we don't outlaw bicycles, motorcycles, and cars because a bus is safer. It's personal choice.

There's the logical truth, safer is not always "better." Safer is a myth, as it's relative. Safer than what? It's not safer than being on a bus. Wearing a helmet on a bus could arguably make you "safer," but at what expense? "Safer" isn't always "better."

Driving without a helmet also has positive effects on society. The pleasure I have driving without a helmet is spread throughout the day to lots of people, as starting my day off with a beautiful ride into work at sunrise makes me happy, and I share that. I drove down to the Harley Davidson 50's Ride last night, there were five helmets that I saw out of about 1,200 bikes. (Surely there were more, but that's all I saw.) Well, two people I rode down with had helmets too, so seven...anyway, there were tons of bikes and at least 90% of the people didn't--there's a reason.

Soda has negative effects on society, as does a steady diet of "fast-food." People choose to do that in the inner-city, even when Michelle Obama had that "initiative" to force stores to sell fruit instead of candy bars--people wanted the candy and junk food.

So there you go, not wearing a helmet has pros and cons. So does skydiving, but skydiving is way more risky (and they do wear a helmet).

 

[Edwardneal]

As a fun side note - you may have to wear a helmet in the Slingshot, but you don't have to wear a seat belt - California's mandatory seat belt law explicitly excludes motorcycles -

So strap on your helmets, take off your seat belts and have a blast

 

[Yochemate]

It's very simple: Wearing a helmet may help in a tip-over, low or mid-speed crash, but it probably has no effect in a high-speed crash (where the rider is spattered like a bug, and no offense to anyone who knows people this happened to--it is tragic). Wearing a helmet can have a seriously detrimental effect if one is run-over (and drug due to the helmet catching a low point of the vehicle). A helmet usually causes additional neck fatigue, which for some people is problematic. Helmets impair vision and hearing to differing degrees. Helmets may save a life, but the quality of living may be "not worth it."

Most importantly, you'd be safer in a car, truck, or even more safe in a bus, but we don't outlaw bicycles, motorcycles, and cars because a bus is safer. It's personal choice.

There's the logical truth, safer is not always "better." Safer is a myth, as it's relative. Safer than what? It's not safer than being on a bus. Wearing a helmet on a bus could arguably make you "safer," but at what expense? "Safer" isn't always "better."

Driving without a helmet also has positive effects on society. The pleasure I have driving without a helmet is spread throughout the day to lots of people, as starting my day off with a beautiful ride into work at sunrise makes me happy, and I share that. I drove down to the Harley Davidson 50's Ride last night, there were five helmets that I saw out of about 1,200 bikes. (Surely there were more, but that's all I saw.) Well, two people I rode down with had helmets too, so seven...anyway, there were tons of bikes and at least 90% of the people didn't--there's a reason.

Soda has negative effects on society, as does a steady diet of "fast-food." People choose to do that in the inner-city, even when Michelle Obama had that "initiative" to force stores to sell fruit instead of candy bars--people wanted the candy and junk food.

So there you go, not wearing a helmet has pros and cons. So does skydiving, but skydiving is way more risky (and they do wear a helmet).

I've had a lot of time on my hands the last few days, so if your sick of my posts please feel to skip this post or even unfollow me, I understand. Let's compare riding without a helmet to smoking In CA. With smoking, which is probably more dangerous, CA doesn't outlaw it, WHY? because they figured out how to make money from letting you exercise your personal freedom to put your life at greater risk, and companies don't stop making cigarettes because in spite the deaths and lawsuits they still make money and never forget the very powerful tobacco lobby. With helmets, unlike cigarettes, CA feels the need to take away your personal freedom to put yourself at greater risk.
As I always have said, everyone is a hypocrite, except me of course.

 

[w_reavis]

I live in Santa Rosa CA and over a 2 year period received 2 tickets for not wearing a helmet..... however I went to court on both occasions and the judge dismissed both and apologized for the trouble.

 

[w_reavis]

Hello, I'm sorry if this has already been covered.

If you look on the Polaris website "slingshot" it clearly states:

Slingshot® is a three-wheeled motorcycle. It is not an automobile. It does not have airbags and it does not meet automotive safety standards. Three wheel vehicles may handle differently than other vehicles, especially in wet conditions. Always wear a DOT-approved full-face helmet and fasten seatbelts. The Driver may need a valid motorcycle endorsement. Don’t drink and drive.

California Vehicle code:

(a) A driver and any passenger shall wear a safety helmet meeting requirements established pursuant to Section 27802 when riding on a motorcycle, motor-driven cycle, or motorized bicycle.

(b) It is unlawful to operate a motorcycle, motor-driven cycle, or motorized bicycle if the driver or any passenger is not wearing a safety helmet as required by subdivision (a).

(c) It is unlawful to ride as a passenger on a motorcycle, motor-driven cycles, or motorized bicycle if the driver or any passenger is not wearing a safety helmet as required by subdivision (a).

(d) This section applies to persons who are riding on motorcycles, motor-driven cycles, or motorized bicycles operated on the highways.

(e) For the purposes of this section, “wear a safety helmet” or “wearing a safety helmet” means having a safety helmet meeting the requirements of Section 27802 on the person’s head that is fastened with the helmet straps and that is of a size that fits the wearing person’s head securely without excessive lateral or vertical movement.

(f) This section does not apply to a person operating, or riding as a passenger in, a fully enclosed three-wheeled motor vehicle that is not less than seven feet in length and not less than four feet in width, and has an unladen weight of 900 pounds or more, if the vehicle meets or exceeds all of the requirements of this code, the Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards, and the rules and regulations adopted by the United States Department of Transportation and the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration.

(g) In enacting this section, it is the intent of the Legislature to ensure that all persons are provided with an additional safety benefit while operating or riding a motorcycle, motor-driven cycle, or motorized bicycle.


Since the Slingshot DOES NOT MEET AUTOMOTIVE SAFETY STANDARDS the helmet law DOES apply to it(California).


Sorry I'm not yelling lol on all the red and bold writing.

I live in Santa Rosa CA and over a 2 year period received 2 tickets for not wearing a helmet..... however I went to court on both occasions and the judge dismissed both and apologized for the trouble.

 

[Nozzledog]

Did you just show him the code? Or what did you say?

 

[Edwardneal]

I live in Santa Rosa CA and over a 2 year period received 2 tickets for not wearing a helmet..... however I went to court on both occasions and the judge dismissed both and apologized for the trouble.

My friend down here in Palm Springs has a slingshot with a full custom made roll cage. He got a ticket for no helmet. To fight it he had to show up on the date initially scheduled on the citation and then when he pleaded not guilty the judge scheduled a second date for him to return for the hearing. In the end like you he "won" and the judge and even the police officer apologized.

When He told me he had "won" I asked him a simple question - how can you tell me you "won" when you lost 2 full days of work and the income from those two days?

He and I looked at the numbers and in the end his lost income for the time at work he missed was actually much more that the fine they wanted him to pay

Personally I find it much easier to just ware my small 1/2 helmet - - perhaps when I am retired I might not might mind going to court to fight tickets, but right now its not worth the missed work time it would take