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@jaytizzl and @[email protected], thank you for the updates. I still have to tear down my Alpha turbo system and send it in to Henry (@Turbosling) for a checkup (bearings don't sound happy), and you can bet I'll be checking the MAP sensor, along with most everything else since I'll be in there. Also thanks to @Blitzkrieg for his addendum to Henry's install instructions.

Just for reference, from my experience Henry has been a really involved owner. I'm pretty sure that's his personality, and from what I can tell his passion is horsepower. From what I've seen he's been very supportive of the team at Alpha, especially given their Slingshot builds--and it is a team, Henry is very clear on that point and gives credit to the guys whose passion is also invested. When I've called he's always taken an interest in my situation and helped in the modifications, tweaks, concerns, whatever it is. This is a lot of custom stuff and it hasn't always gone perfect, but he has been there to stand behind what Alpha sells and get things up and running. I say this because from my standpoint Henry is one of those rare guys that deserve respect for going the extra mile. They put up with government paperwork, overhead, failed experiments, personality conflicts, long hours, and all the other crap that is part of running a business that stems from a passion. It isn't easy doing the bullsh*t that comes along for the ride. One day between the holidays Henry was up on a ladder getting me some parts and gravity almost got him down the fast way--that's not where you want to be, trust me on that.

This whole "making power" thing is great until it gets expensive, and that's where the investment vs. reward can go a little sideways. At least nobody was hurt, getting engine parts embedded in your body is really serious--turns out we don't run well on engine oil and metal fragments. For me the whole Slingshot ride has been pretty good, it's relatively easy to work on, reliable, and affordable for the amount of fun I get out of it. Glad @jaytizzl is still in the game, it's easy to get out, he's hanging tough.
 

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Discussion Starter · #102 ·
Damn dude, when are you going to stop being such an ass and own up to YOUR own mistake, and quit attacking every poster that does not fall in worship of you.

Get a frigging life.

Go ahead spell check and grammer check me because YOUR opinion means nothing to me.

LC

Sorry moderators I just had to.
lol..likewise. Your opinion on this topic is like an asshole...and they, like yours, all stink. Any others?
 

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Discussion Starter · #103 ·
Damn dude, when are you going to stop being such an ass and own up to YOUR own mistake, and quit attacking every poster that does not fall in worship of you.

Get a frigging life.

Go ahead spell check and grammer check me because YOUR opinion means nothing to me.

LC

Sorry moderators I just had to.
BTW, it's "grammar" not "grammer", moron.
 

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Discussion Starter · #104 · (Edited)
Got it corrected before I could quote you.

You added the 'S to it to make it correct, didn't you.

Enough of dueling with a moron, I need not get drug down to his level.

LC
If you are asking a question you should maybe include a question mark, moron. How far do you want to go down this rabbit hole? You should just go on your merry way and pick up a dictionary. "large car" .
 

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Hey guys, from an administrative standpoint the staff has gotten complaints about this thread going off-topic and becoming personal. That really doesn't help anyone, and there's a lot of valuable information here so the staff would rather not get involved as that's never pleasant. Please remove the combative posts after DDM Works update.

As a note, you can have at it in PM, as long as it doesn't get abusive. Just follow the forum guidelines please so the staff can stay out of it.
 

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Discussion Starter · #106 ·
Is it "drug" or "dragged"? No offence, just wondering. ;)
yeah, drugs I suspect.
Hey guys, from an administrative standpoint the staff has gotten complaints about this thread going off-topic and becoming personal. That really doesn't help anyone, and there's a lot of valuable information here so the staff would rather not get involved as that's never pleasant.
i agree..perhaps this thread should be deleted..it has truly gotten out of hand..lol. LC is a riot. LOL..he's funny.
 

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Discussion Starter · #107 · (Edited)
All of the comments are appreciated but I have written this ordeal as a loss and only trying to give others information on what could happen and how to prevent it. Take it or leave it. Check your MAP sensor and sling on! I'm out until the next update.
 

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If you'd like to start a fresh thread and copy/paste the important stuff we can leave this open until you're finished (say 04/05 at noon if that's okay) and then pull this thread. The staff is here to help, so if that's good we can go that route.

It's also possible to copy entire posts (complete, so pictures follow), so we can do that if it helps.
 

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We were able to get @jaytizzl engine apart and take a look at what happened and have come up with a pretty good theory of the failure.

As has been reported earlier, we knew that there was a failure with the #1 cylinder from the hole in the block, but we wanted to come up with a theory of failure in this case to prevent it from happening again.

We removed the spark plugs to check for signs of damage and found that #1 and #3 spark plugs had damage -

IMG_20170403_093019.jpg

#3 Spark Plug

IMG_20170403_093027.jpg


The other spark plugs looked fine in cylinders #2 and #4. We removed the supercharger kit from the engine and proceeded to remove the valve cover, the header and intake manifold. Coolant was found in the in intake manifold and also in the header and exhaust. After removing the timing chain and tensioner, we removed the cylinder head and found the damage to the pistons and block below -

IMG_20170403_143949.jpg


Upon inspection of the block the piston in #1 cylinder was completely missing and had been destroyed. The piston in #3 cylinder was damaged and aluminum pieces of the pistons were found in cylinders #2 and #4 although the pistons in those cylinders did not show damage. Of note is that the rods in all cylinders, including #1 were intact, although #1 cylinder did have a bend and twist to the factory rod. The cylinder liners in cylinder #1 and cylinder #3 were broke and the cause of the coolant leakage into the intake manifold and exhaust. The bores in cylinder #2 and #4 appear to be clean with no scoring, breaks or marks on the walls.

Fortunately, we have been able to see first hand and in pictures a fair amount of failed engines now and the piston failure in #3 cylinder appears to be a different failure mechanism than #1. We have been able to note in other testing that the #2 and #3 cylinders will run slightly hotter than cylinder #1 and #4 under normal conditions due to the lack of coolant around the center of the bores where they meet the other cylinders. Cylinder #1 and #4 have coolant around a greater area and tend to run a little cooler. Many of the engine failures we have seen with other turbo kits has been due to excessive heat build in the engine, typically in cylinder #2 or #3. The piston in cylinder #3 appears to have had damage due to heat build first before complete failure. Looking at the top of piston #3 (3rd cylinder from the right) you will see that the center of the piston is still there, but it looks like pieces on the top edge of the piston started to pop up. We have seen pistons that look almost exactly like this in other engines that failed from heat build in the cylinders. The failure mechanism occurs by heat building in the cylinders from combustion, that heat can migrate down into the upper compression ring in the piston. As the compression ring gets hotter, it expands until it can not expand any further and eventually the ring gap in the compression ring is goes to zero. It is at that point as the compression ring tries to expand more and it is forced up and will put pressure on the upper ring land of the pistons. Once there is sufficient force from the ring, it will pop a piece off of the piston and then start to cause more damage.

The damage to cylinder #1 is more extensive and severe since the piston is completely missing from the bore and the bore is broke in several spots, once again of note is that the rods are still intact in all 4 cylinders.

We then removed the fuel injectors from @jaytizzl engine and checked the fuel injectors in another Slingshot that has our supercharger installed. We started that Slingshot with our supercharger kit, MAP sensor and fuel injectors and noted the base MAP pressure and air/fuel ratio. Then we swapped in the injectors and MAP sensor from @jaytizzi Slingshot and readings were almost identical with no noted changed between the readings at idle. This leads us to rule out a failure of the injectors or MAP sensor as the most likely cause. We did not run the engine with our supercharger kit and the Alpha injectors and MAP sensor at full throttle, as typically if the injectors are not flowing correctly we typically have seen big differences at idle and we did not see that in this case.

After looking at the engine and the damage to #3 and #1 cylinders, and the report from @jaytizzl that the MAP sensor was found out of the intake manifold we came up with a theory of failure that we believe is most probable. We suspect that the failure to the #3 cylinder took relatively more time to happen then that of the #1 cylinder. This lead us to believe that the MAP sensor started to be pushed out of the intake manifold, causing a small leak of pressure at the sensor first. This small leak would mean that the sensor would still see some boost, but the reading would be incorrect and not accurate to what was actually going into the engine. This condition would start to cause a lean situation in the engine and heat build in the cylinders, this is what we believe started to cause the damage in the #3 cylinder. We believe eventually the MAP sensor would have came out completely and at that point all boost reference to the ECM would have been cutoff and fueling would go very lean and a substantial amount pre-ignition or knock would have occured most likely breaking the piston in cylinder #1 and further damaging #3.

We wanted to test this theory to see if we could replicate the conditions that we believe happened to see if that scenario was possible. To do this, we used a stock intake manifold and made plates to block off the openings in the manifold and then hooked a cylinder leak down tester to the manifold. The cylinder leak down tester was choosen because it allowed us to adjust the pressure going into the intake manifold and see what pressure the manifold was holding at the same time.

IMG_20170404_095112.jpg


After setting up the intake manifold for testing, we pressurized the manifold to 11psi, which is the rated pressure of the Alpha supercharger kit. We did start to hear air escaping from the MAP sensor area before it reached 11psi. The pressure feeding into the intake manifold was maintained at 11 psi, however the pressure in the intake manifold was reading only around 5-6 psi at the MAP sensor. This lower pressure at the MAP sensor correlated with the findings of cylinder #3 that there was a lean condition for a period of time that caused the piston damage. With the pressure still being fed into the intake manifold, just tapping on the intake manifold to simulate engine vibration caused the MAP sensor to work itself out and eventually pop out while still at only 11psi. Although we were not there when the engine failed and it is very hard to know exactly what happened, based on the damage to the engine and the test with the MAP sensor on the intake manifold we are pretty confident that is what caused the engine failure.

As a side note, we did install one of our MAP clips onto the same MAP sensor that was on @jaytizzl Slingshot and with the clip installed we were able to go over 30psi at the MAP sensor without the MAP sensor moving even a little bit and no leaks.

Since the MAP sensor becoming loose and eventually popping out seems to have caused the engine failure, we looked into the MAP sensor install more to figure out why there was an issue there. As noted earlier, the MAP sensor that was sent to @jaytizzl for his install had the original orange ribbed seal that comes on the MAP sensor from GM and a black cut nipple to adapt the MAP sensor to the larger hole -

IMG_20170403_152440.jpg


When inserting the MAP sensor that was sent to @jaytizzl in his kit into the intake manifold, we could press with a lot of force, but the MAP sensor would never seat all the way down to the bottom out. The reason we found in this case, was that the black rubber piece installed on this MAP sensor would balloon slightly when installed and prevent the MAP sensor from fully seating -

MAP sensor.jpg


We did contact Henry this morning to let him know what we found also.

Hope that helps, please let me know if you have any questions,
Dave
 

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[email protected]
nice write up
you certainly did a extensive investigation
Questions -
why would it be necessary to have that black rubber
piece over the orange rubber seal on the Map Sensor?
would the Map Sensor just with the orange rubber make a leak proof connection with out that black rubber ?

...................................... tom n carol
 

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Hey guys, from an administrative standpoint the staff has gotten complaints about this thread going off-topic and becoming personal. That really doesn't help anyone, and there's a lot of valuable information here so the staff would rather not get involved as that's never pleasant. Please remove the combative posts after DDM Works update.

As a note, you can have at it in PM, as long as it doesn't get abusive. Just follow the forum guidelines please so the staff can stay out of it.
Yes, without the drama this is a great thread. I will delete my jabs. If the others do the same, it should clean up nicely. :)
 

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[email protected]
nice write up
you certainly did a extensive investigation
Questions -
why would it be necessary to have that black rubber
piece over the orange rubber seal on the Map Sensor?
would the Map Sensor just with the orange rubber make a leak proof connection with out that black rubber ?

...................................... tom n carol

The 2 Bar MAP sensor and orange rubber seal being used in all kits fit nicely in the earlier intake manifolds found in pre-2008 Ecotec's, which have a 10.3mm hole for the MAP sensor. In 2008 and newer Ecotec's, like what is found in the Slingshot, the intake manifold switched to a 12mm hole for the MAP sensor and used a different MAP sensor, so in order to use the same 2 Bar MAP sensor an adapter is needed for it to seal in the larger hole.
 

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The 2 Bar MAP sensor and orange rubber seal being used in all kits fit nicely in the earlier intake manifolds found in pre-2008 Ecotec's, which have a 10.3mm hole for the MAP sensor. In 2008 and newer Ecotec's, like what is found in the Slingshot, the intake manifold switched to a 12mm hole for the MAP sensor and used a different MAP sensor, so in order to use the same 2 Bar MAP sensor an adapter is needed for it to seal in the larger hole.

Thank You
............................................. tom n carol
 

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We were able to get @jaytizzl engine apart and take a look at what happened and have come up with a pretty good theory of the failure.

As has been reported earlier, we knew that there was a failure with the #1 cylinder from the hole in the block, but we wanted to come up with a theory of failure in this case to prevent it from happening again.

We removed the spark plugs to check for signs of damage and found that #1 and #3 spark plugs had damage -

View attachment 117457
#3 Spark Plug

View attachment 117465

The other spark plugs looked fine in cylinders #2 and #4. We removed the supercharger kit from the engine and proceeded to remove the valve cover, the header and intake manifold. Coolant was found in the in intake manifold and also in the header and exhaust. After removing the timing chain and tensioner, we removed the cylinder head and found the damage to the pistons and block below -

View attachment 117481

Upon inspection of the block the piston in #1 cylinder was completely missing and had been destroyed. The piston in #3 cylinder was damaged and aluminum pieces of the pistons were found in cylinders #2 and #4 although the pistons in those cylinders did not show damage. Of note is that the rods in all cylinders, including #1 were intact, although #1 cylinder did have a bend and twist to the factory rod. The cylinder liners in cylinder #1 and cylinder #3 were broke and the cause of the coolant leakage into the intake manifold and exhaust. The bores in cylinder #2 and #4 appear to be clean with no scoring, breaks or marks on the walls.

Fortunately, we have been able to see first hand and in pictures a fair amount of failed engines now and the piston failure in #3 cylinder appears to be a different failure mechanism than #1. We have been able to note in other testing that the #2 and #3 cylinders will run slightly hotter than cylinder #1 and #4 under normal conditions due to the lack of coolant around the center of the bores where they meet the other cylinders. Cylinder #1 and #4 have coolant around a greater area and tend to run a little cooler. Many of the engine failures we have seen with other turbo kits has been due to excessive heat build in the engine, typically in cylinder #2 or #3. The piston in cylinder #3 appears to have had damage due to heat build first before complete failure. Looking at the top of piston #3 (3rd cylinder from the right) you will see that the center of the piston is still there, but it looks like pieces on the top edge of the piston started to pop up. We have seen pistons that look almost exactly like this in other engines that failed from heat build in the cylinders. The failure mechanism occurs by heat building in the cylinders from combustion, that heat can migrate down into the upper compression ring in the piston. As the compression ring gets hotter, it expands until it can not expand any further and eventually the ring gap in the compression ring is goes to zero. It is at that point as the compression ring tries to expand more and it is forced up and will put pressure on the upper ring land of the pistons. Once there is sufficient force from the ring, it will pop a piece off of the piston and then start to cause more damage.

The damage to cylinder #1 is more extensive and severe since the piston is completely missing from the bore and the bore is broke in several spots, once again of note is that the rods are still intact in all 4 cylinders.

We then removed the fuel injectors from @jaytizzl engine and checked the fuel injectors in another Slingshot that has our supercharger installed. We started that Slingshot with our supercharger kit, MAP sensor and fuel injectors and noted the base MAP pressure and air/fuel ratio. Then we swapped in the injectors and MAP sensor from @jaytizzi Slingshot and readings were almost identical with no noted changed between the readings at idle. This leads us to rule out a failure of the injectors or MAP sensor as the most likely cause. We did not run the engine with our supercharger kit and the Alpha injectors and MAP sensor at full throttle, as typically if the injectors are not flowing correctly we typically have seen big differences at idle and we did not see that in this case.

After looking at the engine and the damage to #3 and #1 cylinders, and the report from @jaytizzl that the MAP sensor was found out of the intake manifold we came up with a theory of failure that we believe is most probable. We suspect that the failure to the #3 cylinder took relatively more time to happen then that of the #1 cylinder. This lead us to believe that the MAP sensor started to be pushed out of the intake manifold, causing a small leak of pressure at the sensor first. This small leak would mean that the sensor would still see some boost, but the reading would be incorrect and not accurate to what was actually going into the engine. This condition would start to cause a lean situation in the engine and heat build in the cylinders, this is what we believe started to cause the damage in the #3 cylinder. We believe eventually the MAP sensor would have came out completely and at that point all boost reference to the ECM would have been cutoff and fueling would go very lean and a substantial amount pre-ignition or knock would have occured most likely breaking the piston in cylinder #1 and further damaging #3.

We wanted to test this theory to see if we could replicate the conditions that we believe happened to see if that scenario was possible. To do this, we used a stock intake manifold and made plates to block off the openings in the manifold and then hooked a cylinder leak down tester to the manifold. The cylinder leak down tester was choosen because it allowed us to adjust the pressure going into the intake manifold and see what pressure the manifold was holding at the same time.

View attachment 117489

After setting up the intake manifold for testing, we pressurized the manifold to 11psi, which is the rated pressure of the Alpha supercharger kit. We did start to hear air escaping from the MAP sensor area before it reached 11psi. The pressure feeding into the intake manifold was maintained at 11 psi, however the pressure in the intake manifold was reading only around 5-6 psi at the MAP sensor. This lower pressure at the MAP sensor correlated with the findings of cylinder #3 that there was a lean condition for a period of time that caused the piston damage. With the pressure still being fed into the intake manifold, just tapping on the intake manifold to simulate engine vibration caused the MAP sensor to work itself out and eventually pop out while still at only 11psi. Although we were not there when the engine failed and it is very hard to know exactly what happened, based on the damage to the engine and the test with the MAP sensor on the intake manifold we are pretty confident that is what caused the engine failure.

As a side note, we did install one of our MAP clips onto the same MAP sensor that was on @jaytizzl Slingshot and with the clip installed we were able to go over 30psi at the MAP sensor without the MAP sensor moving even a little bit and no leaks.

Since the MAP sensor becoming loose and eventually popping out seems to have caused the engine failure, we looked into the MAP sensor install more to figure out why there was an issue there. As noted earlier, the MAP sensor that was sent to @jaytizzl for his install had the original orange ribbed seal that comes on the MAP sensor from GM and a black cut nipple to adapt the MAP sensor to the larger hole -

View attachment 117497

When inserting the MAP sensor that was sent to @jaytizzl in his kit into the intake manifold, we could press with a lot of force, but the MAP sensor would never seat all the way down to the bottom out. The reason we found in this case, was that the black rubber piece installed on this MAP sensor would balloon slightly when installed and prevent the MAP sensor from fully seating -

View attachment 117513

We did contact Henry this morning to let him know what we found also.

Hope that helps, please let me know if you have any questions,
Dave
Well done. Class act.
 

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When inserting the MAP sensor that was sent to @jaytizzl in his kit into the intake manifold, we could press with a lot of force, but the MAP sensor would never seat all the way down to the bottom out. The reason we found in this case, was that the black rubber piece installed on this MAP sensor would balloon slightly when installed and prevent the MAP sensor from fully seating -
Am I reading this correct? The problem wasn't necessarily an installation issue but of a sensor that could not be properly seated?
 
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